I check PostSecret almost every week (because sometimes I forget to).
This secret gave me the courage to write this post. It’s normal to fear hell but the truth is? I fear heaven just as much, well but of course I do not wish to end up in hell. I never understood the appeal of an eternity in heaven, and I think I prefer this world with all the shit that is going on to heaven. I never understood the concept of wanting to have an eternal peace, unless one has got a disease maybe or is physically in pain or disability. It’s not because I think this life is beautiful no, on the contrast, it’s because this life is imperfect, because there’s evil in this world and we choose to to be part of or fight against it. I like that.
Somehow this is related to the reward and punishment learning theory, one which I don’t follow. I do not sin not because I do not want to go to hell and that I want to go to heaven, but rather because I love God, and I want to be closer to Him by doing the right things.
I can’t say I don’t fear punishment, but that rarely is the motive, like if I’m too tired and thinking of just going to bed and pray later, but most of the times I just feel ashamed of myself for being too lazy to pray while God is never lazy to look after me, and I’m his creation, God does not need my prayers nor my praise. Reward and punishment to me is more like something I inevitably think of sometimes because every Islamic teacher I had, had nothing else to talk about but how we’re all going to burn in hell for the silliest reasons. But heaven, I think of it only as something I was told about by God, and therefore I believe in, and it’s the faith that matters.
Hi Shaden!
You now I couldn’t let this post go by without a comment, although somehow I missed it earlier. Do you mind if I give you a perspective of something Jesus said? I don’t know much about heaven from anIslamic perspective, but I love what is written from a Christian one.
He likened heaven as a massive wedding celebration…where he the bridegroom awaits the bride who has been preparing herself (and he helping her prepare by conforming her heart to his…by wooing her with loving encouragement, and reminding her of the things that are not good for her). Some of the bride were not ready when he came to get them…due to her lack of proper preparation, she was not taken with. But would a groom want to spend eternity with a bride that didn’t care enough for him to be ready when he came?
It’s not so much that God is waiting to blast us for any little sin, it’s more like you mentioned in another place…he doesn’t need our prayer and praise. But does he want it? Yes…becaus it draws us closer to his heart, reveals his character to us, helps us to obey because we love to not because we have to. Just like we get to know a groom before the wedding, this life prepares us for eternity. God can be known, as much as our finite imperfect minds can handle, He loves to reveal his character.
There is no physical analogy here, nothign about sex, it is all in terms of emotional intimacy. God said “Love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul and all your mind”…it didn’t say ‘Obey your God with all ..,” but love him.
I hope you can be encouraged by this.
Hey, skip Desperate Housewives…the 5th is the day Rebecca has her special event!
I think that at first we may obey God because we don’t want to go to hell (and I think that’s ok at first), but as we mature we grow to where we obey out of love for him. Like when you were a child you obeyed your parents because you didn’t want to get spanked, but as you grew up you obeyed because you love and respect them.
1) i think a belief that evil exists results in evil. once you think someone or something is evil you stop understanding, and you need not treat that someone as human, you take a step closer to evil yourself.
1b) hell: if god has created a hell, then i rather not believe in that inhuman/vengeful god.
2) marriage, weddings, pah! just as there is no end to history, there is no end to the story of your life - no happily ever after.
3) “obey god”.
instinctively i dislike that term.
how do you /know/ you obey him? does your knowledge of the “rules” come from the society you were brought up in (you habitually unquestioningly follow them) or an internal ijtjihad (with which you could justify anything)?
—————
(if this sounds caustic, i apologise, but i prefer strong debate than wishy-washyness)
John, I prefer the ‘pah’ to the wishy-washy too. I just wrote a piece talking about ’submission and obedience’ being the new dirty words of this generation. Not surprisingly, by the children of those who grew up in the 60s.
I didn’t grow up a Christian, but was raised in a pagan/hedonistic environment where ‘rules’ were fluid an dI had complee freedom to do what ever I wanted. In fact, although it was California, our rules were much like I see in Jordan…it’s not wrong to break rules unless you get caught doing it. Becoming a Christian, having rules and a basis for why they were there, freed me.
I agree with your 2nd part of #1, but not the first part. Evil in humanity is the one constant since time began, using and abusing others to get ahead is the human condition. No religion, no government, no ideology has ever stopped it.
I’m living out my ‘happily ever after’…a great husband who loves me as Christ commanded ane lived out…enough to die for me. Not like giving me his heart for a transplant, but by daily considering my needs before his own. And I do the same back.
Kinzi, i wasn’t posting particularly in reply to your post (i must admit i only scanned it ;)).
……
I think rules are important, but people need to test them nd question them (something which i don’t see in many deeply religious circles). Hedonism and anarchism is an extreme — but a dogmatic, obedient, submissive culture is not good either.
……
Once you call someone or some group evil, you can justify any action against them - /that/ is dangerous (look at Bush and his “axis of evil”, Hezbollah and Israel’s right).
Perhaps belief in evil is necessary though for believers in a God…
John,
1) I do not believe that there’s anyone who is entirely evil or entirely good. You misunderstood me.
1/b) But don’t you believe in justice? and that some evil acts should not go unpunished? and if that happens it means God is unfair, and if that is true then He is not God.
2) I didn’t get it
3) Personally, I don’t have a problem with that. Because everything I’ve been ordered to do in the Qura’an is completely understandable and I’m really convinced by it. But I must say that I do my own thinking, and I choose the interpretation that makes sense to me.
Kinzi, thanks a lot for sharing that with me. At first I didn’t like the analogy of the bride and groom but I think I understand where you’re coming from, and I must say it’s a good way to think about it although does not answer all the questions, such as where do those who are unready go? and why is it good to be ready and experience the eternal love? but I don’t think anyone can answer these questions.
1) but you believe some are partly evil? or temporarily evil…
2) sorry, just think that unmarried pin too much hope sometimes, that getting married is a panacea…
3) i would trust in your interpretation, you seem pretty smart. but i wonder at how that mechanism works for ppl like Osama, or the after Jewish settler extremist…
(that post ended a long week… need to relax head more…)
Shaden, I will relax my head too and think about a suitable answer for tomorrow. Thanks for your willingness to contemplate it, I will join you.
>But don’t you believe in justice?
I do.
>and that some evil acts should not go unpunished?
criminal acts should be punished.
I believe there is an underlying reason for every action - in the sense of cause and effect. i would rather understand the causes and ensure they don’t happen again, than labeling them evil and being none the wiser.
as for god and hell being the ultimate justice. the idea that villains can never escape God is comforting. however comforting it is to own such beliefs, doesn’t make them true.
>and if that happens it means God is unfair, and if that is true then He is not God.
is it fair that a new born baby is born with brittle bone disease, suffers incredible pain, and dies of pain a few months after?
is that justice? is that evil? no one has explained that to me.
Kinzi, John thanks a lot for leaving comments. I’ll get back to you as soon as I can : )
that’s ok missus, in truth, these conversation are so tempting, but i really should know better than to get involved
1) but you believe some are partly evil? or temporarily evil…
Yes
3) i would trust in your interpretation, you seem pretty smart. but i wonder at how that mechanism works for ppl like Osama, or the after Jewish settler extremist…
It’s all about how we interpret things, sometimes we interpret religions to our liking, and it’s so easy to do so for example, I can justify almost anything by using a Qura’anic verse. It’s scary I know but some people can be really stupid and/or lost.
As for justice, I believe that there are extremes as in murder, nothing justifies it, and unless it was in defense or the murderer was mentally ill, he should not be forgiven. Can you think of good reasons for murder? I can’t.
Is it fair that a new born suffers…well I’d say know but then I’m not God I’m only human and hence I know very little. We should believe that everything happens for a reason, for a greater cause. Maybe if that infant lived it would be unfair to him and others, maybe he was meant to kill someone or even kill himself. I don’t know.
Faith is all about unquestioning. When you believe in someone you don’t doubt, you just believe, and so is believing in God. It’s not easy, and it’s complicated but one can’t live without believing. I’m sure you believe in something or someone, everybody does, we were created like that.
tcdrw, I tried to comment on your blog but I think I need to have an account on Yahoo 360. Maybe I’ll do that later, but thanks for your comments.
>Faith is all about unquestioning.
do you question yourself why Israel does these terrible acts to your country folk? do Israelis really try to figure out why Hizbollah, Hamas etc. terrorise them? did Americans think much about the motives for 9/11?
– no it’s all “evil”.
such good unquestions. diligent unthinking.
is it a coincidence that each side is staunchly religious?
Shaden, Jesus said “Seek and you shall find, knock and it shall be opened”, I think God gives ALL people a chance to seek Him. I remember as a 12 year old, only having heard the word ‘God’ as a swear word, looking up at the mountain stars and knowing that a Creator exited. “The heavens declare the glory of God, the mountains reveal His handiwork’.
John, you are so right that marriage can be a panacea for some. It isn’t ‘happy’ all the time, I probably shouldn’t have said that. It is a struggle to choose the other person’s best even when you don’t feel like it. Just getting married doesn’t solve any problem that was there before, you will still have times of loneliness. but it is the ultimate act of human commitment, a promise to love for life, which is why it is used as an analogy of God’s love and commitment to us.
Faith doesn’t mean unquestioning, I think it means trusting in God’s goodness (or ‘fairness’, as Shaden said)to the point that His character over-rides today’s reality. I believe God loves it when we wrestle through hard questions, as He reveals more about himself through it…like Jacob wrestling with God until God blessed him. But many times, when His answer is ‘no’ or ‘wait’ and we don’t know why, we trust His character for future good.
As far as that brittle-boned baby, it was God’s mercy to end his suffering. I believe that children who die spend eternity with God. I believe the root of all evil is rebellion against God (and the love of money). Israel has rebelled against God since the beginning…yet God chose to work through Israel as an example to us all that He can love even the worst of us. One day they will wake up and see how they have now become…as evil as Nazis were to them.
John, I’m glad you chose to stay in this discussion…it’s not too often you get a devout Muslim and Christian together to talk about these kind of subjects.
Shaden, you are delightful! See you tomorrow night!